Author Topic: Definitely going to this con [Defcon]  (Read 7331 times)

Offline linear

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Re: Definitely going to this con [Defcon]
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2006, 01:31:51 PM »
a response to the incentive problem:

Quote
Q.  Where is the incentive under Socialism?

A.  "Where is the incentive under Socialism?" is a commonly asked question."If everyone is paid the same wage than where is the incentive for the worker to produce more than he has to or even the quota amount?"

Lenin explains in the "State and Revolution", and Marx explains in"Critique of the Gotha Program", it is impossible to jumpstraight from capitalism to the most advanced stage of human society - a classless society based on the democratic administration of things in the interests of all. Communism is based on being able to provide more than needed for everyone - and though in the US we could reach that level fairly quickly, it is still not there right now. This is why a transitionalperiod, which we often refer to as socialism is necessary.

During this timethere will still be elements of the old society (some market economy, some armed forces until the whole world is in the deomcratic hands of theworkers, etc.) But already things will be moving rapidly towards thecomplete dissolution of the state, of the market economy and so on. Once the workers begin to democraticly all plan the BIG industries - the ones which dominate ourlives - energy, banking, agriculture, pharmaceuticals, etc., then we will be putting the surplus produced by the workers towards improving our lives.

New technology and greater productivity of labor will lead to a decrease inthe working day, to more time for study, travel, exploration, research,music, art, culture, etc. Nowadays the incentive to work harder is "work so you can pay your rent, your mortgage, your interest on credit card and school loans, your over-priced food, healthcare, transportation, and entertainment, and so on or STARVE". THAT is the only incentive capitalism offers us! Why work more efficiently at work if you know you have to be there for 8 hours no matter what?

Under socialism, the incentive to come up with more efficient ways to do things is that we'd have to work less time to do the same amount of work! The amount of NECESSARY labor needed to produce the things we NEED like food, housing, etc. would gradually decrease so that eventually we may only need to "work" for 2 hours a week or less! Of course as humans we would not be lazy and sit around - humans are curious, exploratory, and want to learn, invent, etc. Our "free" time would be spent creating ever better works of art, scientific research, cures for diseases,etc. After a period of time, the new generations will not even know what it was like under capitalism, and the productivity of labor will be tremendoulsy high. The barrier between "work" and raw human exploration and mastery over its environment (in harmony with the environment!) will disappear also - no more coercive state, police, etc. No more chaos in the markets - the workers will plan what we need and then reinvest a portion to continually make even better things. EVERYONE will be "rich" so to speak - able to travel, to live comfortably, to eat what they wish, to continue their education throughout life.

so, to put it moe simply, since we are conditioned in a capitalist sense, it's harder to grasp us not just looking out for number one... in a non-capitalist society, you're not conditioned in a dog-eat-dog mindset. you're more community-oriented, as we've seen successfully on smaller scales in many societies, ancient to modern.

AS FAR AS HEALTHCARE,
universal health care is fundamentally anti-capitalist. if you can't pay for health care, say the capitalist, you're not working hard enough and therefore don't deserve it. there's no way to make money by giving health care for free, so that seems unnecessary. I'm not going to pay YOUR health care just because YOU can't afford it, says the capitalist (nevermind the fact that the capitalist's healthcare is free to him, too).


Offline linear

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Re: Definitely going to this con [Defcon]
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2006, 01:43:42 PM »
yikes, i just realized the potential for this thread to becme ridiculous. if this IS going to turn into a silly political debate, i think we can all agree to keep it civil, yes?

i don't think this is the best place to be discussing politics.


Offline Raptor

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Re: Definitely going to this con [Defcon]
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2006, 04:25:44 PM »
here's my say short and sweet:

OMFG (INSERT POLITICAL OPPINION HERE) My own mediocre attempt at humor has been highly amusing to myself.!1 (FLAME/QUOTE ANOTHER USER) (List reasons why Im right and your wrong) (LINK TO SOME POPULAR POLITICAL WEBSITE)  !!AND TYPE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS SO MY POINT SOMEHOW BECOMES MORE RELEVANT!!!!11111one 0n e elleven elleventyone
Raptor\\\'s Random Reviews!

http://www.phonelosers.org/forums/index.php?board=30.0

Offline linear

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Re: Definitely going to this con [Defcon]
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2006, 04:40:39 PM »
here's my say short and sweet:

OMFG (INSERT POLITICAL OPPINION HERE) My own mediocre attempt at humor has been highly amusing to myself.!1 (FLAME/QUOTE ANOTHER USER) (List reasons why Im right and your wrong) (LINK TO SOME POPULAR POLITICAL WEBSITE)  !!AND TYPE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS SO MY POINT SOMEHOW BECOMES MORE RELEVANT!!!!11111one 0n e elleven elleventyone

your biting social commentary has won me over, heart and mind. i now believe in (INSERT POLITICAL OPPINION HERE), now that you've explained it so concisely.


Offline JohnKerry

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Re: Definitely going to this con [Defcon]
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2006, 05:26:57 PM »
I'm not sure WTF you're going on about here.  My observations had nothing to do with homeless people. 

Did I say it did? Learn how to read.

Quote
I pointed out what I feel is a flaw in the communist system using the example of two employed people who are doing the same job.  You decided, rather than actually refute my argument, to tell me that you had a better example of my argument, then you laid out an arguement which was neither better nor mine own, and then refuted that, instead.   

It was a better example.  Until you can refute that it stands.

Offline linear

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Re: Definitely going to this con [Defcon]
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2006, 05:29:42 PM »
I'm not sure WTF you're going on about here.  My observations had nothing to do with homeless people. 

Did I say it did? Learn how to read.

Quote
I pointed out what I feel is a flaw in the communist system using the example of two employed people who are doing the same job.  You decided, rather than actually refute my argument, to tell me that you had a better example of my argument, then you laid out an arguement which was neither better nor mine own, and then refuted that, instead.   

It was a better example.  Until you can refute that it stands.


civil. seriously. we can be grown ups here.


Offline JohnKerry

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Re: Definitely going to this con [Defcon]
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2006, 08:17:25 AM »
I wasn't being civil?  That's news to me.